Jessica Brown-Author, Nutritionalist, Compassion Teacher

Alexandra Atwell: Hello, hello out there community, welcome back. This is Allie, your host of the Autoimmune Mom podcast. Today I'm very excited for my guest. She's going to be talking to us about something I think is missed ⁓ a lot of people who are trying to heal themselves, ⁓ talked about enough, ⁓ it could be the missing link that of us are really needing to get to that healing. So Jessica Brown, she is a clinical nutritionist. Stanford certified compassion teacher, She's a compassion teacher, ⁓ author of Beyond the Shot and The Diet. ⁓ She's the creator of the GLP-1 Nutritional She has 25 years of ⁓ in functional medicine, clinical nutritionist, and compassion coaching. much we could talk about on podcast today. really excited that you're here. Thank you so much for your time ⁓ and sharing with our community. ⁓

Jessica Brown: Bye.

Alexandra Atwell: what you've learned in the last 25 years. So, excited to speak to you, Jessica.

Jessica Brown: Thanks for having me and having this conversation. It's a really important one.

Alexandra Atwell: Oh yes. you know, 16 years ago I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and I have a problem too and I tend not to talk about that as much because it's not as big on the forefront of my autoimmune journey. But I've tried a million and a half things and there was only one other person who ever said anything to me about... healing and going deeper into more of a personal taking a roadmap of my personal life to find where I could heal emotionally to help with the healing because I was so good at all the diets and supplements and chiropractic and acupuncture and sauna and doing all the things. I was like the perfect person when it came to that. But there was still a disconnect and I could not heal. And one other practitioner in 16 years said something to me about what you are specializing in. And I think that's telling that, you know, there's a there's a need for this conversation. why don't we start with how you got to where you are and your journey to where you are.

Jessica Brown: Pain is a huge motivator. whether it's emotional pain or physical pain, so I really got here because of my own pain. I searched for answers. I I knew. I tried go outside of myself as best I could. ⁓ I became I called like a perfect performer, like what you're saying. And it did provide peace and it didn't change ⁓ how I related my own circumstances. ⁓ So I really came to do the work that I do because of my own personal pain and felt like I was consistently coming up short with ways to be free or to get past my own limitations. So for me, it was a personal experience. I do have an identical twin sister and she has two autoimmune diseases. And so for me, I became started working in the autoimmune world because the genetics are so inside of me to have autoimmune disease. And so when my sister was diagnosed, she said, ⁓ my gosh, what should I do? And so of course, the first thing was get on a restricted diet, start all the testing. ⁓ And I became really proficient at that. But what I realized as a nutritionist working with people with autoimmune disease, is a lot ⁓ of people started to become also perfect performers and not get better or feel trapped the space that they were in. And so I started to practice compassion because it was a very effective evidence-based modality that people could learn themselves. ⁓ it helped people start relating to their circumstances differently, even if they couldn't change their circumstances, which is what really autoimmunity is. a personal level, I a marriage fall apart and lost pretty much everything. And ⁓ realized were things I was scared, terrified actually to look at inside of myself. And so I doing the work ⁓ on myself. And I saw the transformation inside of myself, I started working with my clients and they were really trustworthy enough of me to sort of help them move along where they were in their journey.

Alexandra Atwell: Interesting. know, I've been noticing a lot in this community of women that I'm talking to, moms, that a lot of these moms that I've spoken to all have some kind of trauma situation, or high situation right before diagnosis or during diagnosis, or they've ⁓ helped, ⁓ know. foster child through cancer and then three years later, there when they kind of relax, this whole thing comes into place. And it's almost like, seeing this pattern. ⁓ you seen that pattern as well

Jessica Brown: There's something that I encourage all your listeners to do ⁓ they're listening to this, ⁓ that they can do to help them understand. It's called the ACE study, the Adverse Childhood Experience Study, and you can actually go online and take the test for free. ⁓ was one of the things that I did. I ⁓ was into a life where I felt like I was broken, rejected, unlovable, and beyond repair. when I kept trying to get past it, get away from it, get through it, fix my brokenness. And then I did that ACE, ⁓ my God, I remember doing the ACE score and my score was so horrible. And it was based on nothing that I had anything to do with. was being a parent of alcoholic, having a divorced family, my parents divorced. There's all of these things that science has actually shown. ⁓ that the higher our A score, the more likely it is that we're going to be dealing with chronic illness and all of the emotional and mental things that come along with chronic illness. And so when I saw my own A score, which was nothing I could change high, I started to think, ⁓ my God, ⁓ really motivated to change my A score. Does anything change it? ⁓ I started to see that compassion and practicing compassion. ⁓ actually can help lower the consequences of our high A score, which is chronic illness. So high A score, chronic illness go hand in hand and it's science has already proven it. But for those of us who feel helpless about how we came into the world and who our parents were, it's a really cool way to like kind of get to work, ⁓ or modify how that high A score ⁓ up in our physical ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: Thank

Jessica Brown: health, if that makes sense.

Alexandra Atwell: Interesting. how do you change that? ⁓ What's first step in making that ⁓ a changing your high A score?

Jessica Brown: So self-compassion, practicing self-compassion ⁓ requires a vote to believe in yourself and like you're worth your own care. But it does when we start practicing it is it increases emotional resilience, which a lot of people who have high ACE scores from hard childhoods ⁓ or backgrounds have low emotional resilience. And it also helps ⁓ rewire our sympathetic nervous system to being in that kind of fight or flight, which also is really hard for our physical health. So those two things I thought was so cool to look at, ⁓ I actually have more power than I thought. doesn't take away maybe the need for therapy or having a team of people caring for you, ⁓ but I self-compassion because ⁓ anyone can it. You just need to know how to do it. ⁓ And then biggest thing is, is you have to actually vote for yourself.

Alexandra Atwell: ⁓

Jessica Brown: and be with the part of you that's struggling in this moment. That's a tall order.

Alexandra Atwell: know, I'm ⁓ the Northeast ⁓ we grew up in very Irish Catholic ⁓ and we were like, ⁓ you ⁓ grin and bear it. You just like grin and bear it. And ⁓ that's what we did. And my sister passed away when I was seven. She only a month old. ⁓ And had a beautiful childhood, but my parents were grieving ⁓ and were grieving. And 1986, you didn't talk about that kind of stuff. You just grinned and bared it. ⁓

Jessica Brown: Mm. Me too! We're going to be right back.

Alexandra Atwell: But it definitely left a mark on us and we've all dealt with it differently, but autoimmune disease is pretty prevalent in my family as well. So it's interesting as a mother to think like ⁓ can give my kids some tools here ⁓ help prevent them from ⁓ a high A score. mean, you if we have ⁓ some that are more compassionate. That would be an amazing, that would make my whole month, my whole year, if I could give my kid, I could take away a little bit of this, you're predestined because it's in our DNA and we've all had trauma and all that stuff, which I don't believe is the full picture. I think it ⁓ the gun, doesn't pull the trigger type of thing. So what are some of the steps we can do?

Jessica Brown: Well, one is to understand that self-compassion does usually require a certain level of feeling uncomfortable. there's discomfort, and we just don't like to feel discomfort. ⁓ so one is just sort of acknowledging, like, ⁓ just want to be past this. I want to be over this. I don't like to feel comfortable. And just start there ⁓ realize that compassion is ⁓ yourself support and care in an uncomfortable state. wishing things were different, feeling like you got bad luck of the draw, you know, especially with autoimmune disease. And so that's the first thing is, is just look at where your orientation is. I call it the NICE protocol. What I, what I write about in my book, which is the first thing is, is notice. So first we just want to notice. And I have a lot of my clients write their struggle story, which is just put pen to paper. I know we're trying to rewrite our story, get past our story, pretend our story doesn't exist, you know, ⁓ but there's a part of us that's still hurting. And so compassion asks us if we will at least pay attention to the part inside of us that's hurting. And we always, and especially in this country, we see that as a deficit. We just need to, you know, be strong, but self-compassion is actually one of the biggest inner strengths that we can flex. ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: Yes.

Jessica Brown: because it's been shown to increase emotional resilience. So that the next time you are challenged, the next maybe diagnosis or the next person that we deeply care about passing, we will be able to say, this is really hard. I'm terrified or I'm scared. I don't know how I'm going to get through this, I'm going to be here for myself as going through this hard experience. So notice is the very first thing. However you can notice your pain and your struggle and your story, do it.

Alexandra Atwell: Acknowledging. Yep. Yes. That makes sense to me because I always tell my kids there's no growth in your comfort zone. So if we're just sitting over here, you know, comfortable and ⁓ not growing and we're not learning and we're not developing and you have to get uncomfortable. So I love that. ⁓ ⁓ so you said nice noticing the next step ⁓ include. ⁓

Jessica Brown: Include. And so what are we including? We're including the parts inside of ourself that are hurt, that feel left behind, that feel unlovable, that are scared that we're missing something, that feel like our body has betrayed us. You we want to include the quiet parts that we shove aside or back into a closet because we feel like those aren't the winning parts of ourself.

Alexandra Atwell: I bet you that's really hard for a lot of

Jessica Brown: So we first we notice them and then we actually include them. I think of it like this. Think of our internal landscape as a group of friends ⁓ like a part of a sports team. We want the best parts, the best players on our sports team. But we know that a good sports team always includes people who have many talents. And if we're including everybody in our sports team, we have to include the underdogs. We have to include the parts that just need a little bit more coaching or help. That's including and saying, I'm not going to abandon you anymore. I'm not going to put you in the closet. I'm actually going to include you in how I see myself in my life and not and stop identifying you as the loser or the part that's holding me back. Again, takes a lot of vulnerability, takes a lot of voting, but these

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah, I can imagine that's a sticky point for a lot of people. Like they don't want to, it's not, that's where the uncomfortableness is coming in force, in my opinion. ⁓ yeah, that can be hard to do, but liberating the other side.

Jessica Brown: huge point. full force. very liberating because it also is signaling that there's no part of you that isn't lovable. And so that's so ingrained in chronic illness, you know, is, ⁓ my gosh, I did something wrong to cause this, I missed something. And parts still active and alive, and they're often the parts of us that are making really important decisions. ⁓ you know, and we start to get scared. It's those parts of us that come in that have hold heavy weight for how we stay safe.

Alexandra Atwell: thousand percent can see that for sure. then the next step C.

Jessica Brown: Compassion, showing compassion.

Alexandra Atwell: Why can we be so compassionate for other people and so hard on our own selves? It's one of the things my mother tells me all the time. You're so hard on yourself. Like, chillax.

Jessica Brown: I asked myself Humans believe that transformation comes through hardship. And so if it's not uncomfortable or hard, then you're not trying hard enough. We have proven or we have shown ourselves that we prove our worthiness by what we're willing to sacrifice. And so I think it kind of comes from that, no pain, no gain. That is so in... so immersed in that.

Alexandra Atwell: For sure. mean, my own experience, that was my mentality for 15 years.

Jessica Brown: There's a really interesting study that was done with professional athletes and compassion because compassion is so ⁓ man's land, especially when it comes to things that are competitive, ⁓ people were convinced that people who practice compassion were actually poor sports players. And what they found is that professional athletes that practice compassion do better competitively. So we don't have to give up our love of competitiveness.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Brown: But we have to reorient how we see ourself and our worth if we fail to practice compassion. And that's the part that I just absolutely love the most about compassion is it's been studied over and over and over again to show that people who last the longest and have the greatest resilience tend to practice compassion. But it doesn't mean for a second that you're not strong, capable, competitive, know, love a good game kind of thing.

Alexandra Atwell: Well, that and that's a mind to get my mind around as an ex-athlete. Like we were ⁓ to win, ⁓ you like ⁓ being with my body, not responding the way, you know, as it, as I, it always has is very difficult. It's, it's, ⁓ I, feel like I've failed. I feel like I've tried to heal a million different ways and it's always a failure. ⁓ And entire youth, I asked body to do something and it did it. ⁓ And it in a very specific way, high level way, and all of a sudden it was not responding and I was really, who am I if I'm not an athlete? And really hard on myself. That's a tricky one too.

Jessica Brown: That would be a good question too for you to notice in that nice protocol is notice what the part of you that has that failure component feels or is experiencing or more importantly what it believes.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: because that kind of curiosity is gonna help unpack and make it more safe to practice compassion. And so, because we do have these separated parts of ourself and your failure part, I don't know if you would even call it a part, would you, does that sound like it resonates with you? Like there's a part of you it feels like it failed.

Alexandra Atwell: Sometimes, yes. In healing, yes. I'm not someone who's afraid of failure. I do take steps. But in this one particular point, I was a competitive athlete and then I was running. body was very much active of what I was in doing every day. ⁓

Jessica Brown: me.

Alexandra Atwell: You know, like I was always working out. I was always, I had a goal. I was running, I was, I needed a scholarship. I needed to score a thousand points. I needed to be an all-time leading scorer. I needed to something when I graduated. So I went into running and then I did a half marathon and then I needed to do marath, you know, there was always this and my body was always responding and then it all went to shit and I no idea who, I felt like a failure. I had no idea who I was if I didn't have all that. So here I am 16 years later and I've peeled back some onions. There's always work to be done because you can always fall back on these feelings even if you're do you ever conquer any of this? I don't know. I feel like it's just, you're constantly growing.

Jessica Brown: We'll see your as you're sharing that story with me. I'm wondering what belief got formed as you had that experience because that's going to be the place where everything is here to assist us with something. And so that perhaps you could maybe look at what's going on with your body with rheumatoid and what happened back then with the failure piece, which is and I'm going to take a liberty to just say like. maybe this has something to, I'm not sure if this would be a belief, but as you're talking, I'm wondering, which is if my body fails in any way, I'm a failure.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yes. because all I was was an athlete back then. And I didn't have children when I was diagnosed. So I was just met my husband. We were getting married. But like I was an athlete. ⁓ had a master's degree, but I was waiting to like I just I I didn't have a full career. I was an athlete. And now not. And so that a major failure for sure. ⁓

Jessica Brown: So that's. These beliefs get, they help us make sense of something that is so challenging. So you're just going along living your life and then all of a sudden. ⁓ so ⁓ beliefs of if my body fails, I'm a failure isn't actually true. But in the moment when you're having your experience, it helps you make sense ⁓ what is going on that you can't understand at that moment.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: And then what happens is, is when we don't clear them up, because actually it's not true that you're a failure if your body fails. But it just seemed like that helped you pull together to create an understanding of your hard situation. And that belief stays if we don't correct it. And then it moves over into the unconscious and it becomes the land for which we look out from. And then it becomes so familiar to us.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jessica Brown: that we don't even remember that that's the belief that we have that's dictating how we see life. And self-compassion is the one skill that we all can practice to change that belief. And it's actually just through care. It's literally just ⁓ a, I was doing the best that I could at that moment and I didn't understand what was happening to me. And I decided that, but it's actually understandable. but it's actually not true. Look how well I did making sense of that hard thing that happened to me. Does that make sense? Now, as I'm saying that to you, might even notice how you feel inside as we're talking. And that's the main part. do you feel?

Alexandra Atwell: Totally makes sense, yeah. Yeah, like... I feel like ⁓ just gave my little self a hug. forgiveness, I guess. don't know. It's an emotional feeling for sure.

Jessica Brown: Very emotional and well for people who are listening that they can they maybe they have like children or maybe they have you know they're an aunt or an uncle and they have ⁓ think about kids who might be going through this and then you can think about you going through that which was you would completely intervene if you had a child that went through a hard experience that then decided they were the failure because their body failed.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jessica Brown: And you would say, ⁓ my gosh, no, no, no. Look at how amazing you are and how hard you're trying and you're showing up every day. See, we intervene. World compassion is that we can go back and intervene anywhere on our timeline. And that's what's so helpful for chronic illness as well.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes, I can see that. I'm very hard on myself for a lot of different things, but to take the second to it and notice and give myself compassion, that's an thing for me. ⁓ But ⁓ something I've started to do without really noticing that I'm doing it, ⁓ and we can talk about that in a minute. But what's the final component, excuse me, ⁓ throat, ⁓ nice? ⁓ ⁓

Jessica Brown: Mm-hmm. experience. And so when I asked you, Ali, how are you feeling? And you said a little emotional. That's that. So we want to notice what our story is. We want to include all the parts that have felt left out or turned away or cast out. We want to show those parts compassion. And then we want to experience what it feels like to do that. Very effective.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Okay. Okay, very effective. And I would assume that some people catch on to this a lot faster than others. Like this is a practice. takes, you have to, it's like a muscle. You have to work it out to get, isn't just a, ⁓ okay, let me do this one. I'll write down my story and notice all these things and I'm cured. Like this is something that we need to be ⁓ doing. Yeah. ⁓

Jessica Brown: It's a muscle and just to help everyone feel better, I, for me myself, I'm so stubborn. And I ⁓ thought I knew the way that I, took me years to do this until finally I actually had no other options. And I was willing to give up my position that I knew how to get through my own pain. I knew how to solve my pain. I knew how to heal my pain. I knew how to fix my brokenness.

Alexandra Atwell: Okay.

Jessica Brown: I finally had to give up that position that I knew the best. And for me, it took years and years. So anybody who's listening to this and thinking, ⁓ my God, that sounds hard, or you have to practice, I'm ⁓ much held as long as I possibly could to show myself care. Because I ⁓ didn't I deserved my own care, because that was the weak way.

Alexandra Atwell: I think that's... Sorry, go ahead. Yes, resonate with that for sure ⁓ we're strong Irish, well I'm an Irish ⁓ woman. ⁓ and Barrett and ⁓ know if our grandmothers can get through the depression we can get through this and ⁓ exactly

Jessica Brown: Yeah. Me too, Irish Catholic. Potato famine.

Alexandra Atwell: That all resonates with me ⁓ in your book you talk a lot about this type of thing in healing the way that people eat ⁓ their relationship with food and that also resonates with me as somebody who's struggled with her weight most of her life and so ⁓ that component, you know, talk about it in autoimmunity but ⁓ I know there's ⁓ just from to women in this community that I have here ⁓ a lot us are struggling with our weight too. We're taking medications.

Jessica Brown: Yeah.

Alexandra Atwell: We're doing all this, so you touch a little bit on how ⁓ seen it help ⁓ weight loss? ⁓

Jessica Brown: So when we look at, I call that the inner eater, the part of us that struggles with our weight. And so what we want to do is first ask ourselves, what is the relationship that we have to the part of us that struggled with our weight for years and years and years and years? What's our relationship? Because when I looked at that, I was like, I hate that part of me. I just want to not struggle. We don't have a good relationship, the part of me that struggles with my weight. That part of me that struggles with my weight has been both the thorn in my side and the problem I've been trying to solve forever. was the girl that got made fun of in her bathing suit when I was eight years old. That was the part of me that put myself on a diet doing Alba chocolate milkshakes when I was nine years old. So the first question is, we wanna just stop struggling with our weight. And in order to do that, we have to acknowledge that we struggled with our weight to create a more cooperative relationship to the part of us that's been struggling with our weight. For me, ⁓ was realizing that I'm maybe never going to feel happy about my weight, but that I would definitely find peace. So for me, I found peace with being unhappy with my body, which sounds really strange. But I just kept finding like, ⁓ my God, if I'm just happy with my body, then it'll be OK. But for me, I actually said, you know what? I've actually been unhappy with my body forever. still don't really like it very much. I'm appreciative of all the things that it does. But I just have not liked the struggle I've been in. I don't like the way that it looks. It's been a little bit of a disappointment. And I'm just going to be OK with that. And when I did that, it took a huge weight off my shoulders.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. I think just giving women permission to think that is kind of powerful because, you know, like that's something that I would say too. Have I ever really been happy with my body even when I was strong and running marathons and smaller and all of that? No, I actually was never happy with it. always been, I'm six feet tall, I've always stood out, my hair is curly and all over the place and things that I can't even control. and then add in we and you're left. So I think that's pretty powerful to say it's okay. It's okay if you don't like it. Yeah.

Jessica Brown: and to find peace with it instead of constantly feeling like you need to transform it. But then it also gives yourself permission to take action in whatever feels best to you, which is for me why I didn't feel like I needed to justify or defend going on a microdose of a GLP-1 medication. I don't need to feel positive about my, I don't think body positivity works because it's a lot of bypassing. ⁓ And I also feel like I don't feel body neutrality either. I have unhappiness and I think that it's, can find a place where I can have a cooperative relationship with my unhappiness due to self-compassion.

Alexandra Atwell: you things in this world that we are unhappy with but have to live with and it's fine. We can put it over here. ⁓ I don't know what it is, but ⁓ of the state you live in. But that's fine, we're still gonna live here and we can put it over here and we can be fine with that. But our bodies, no, we do that. ⁓ We to kill ourselves to get ourselves to be the way that ⁓ our mind we should be. Let's talk a bit more about the microdosing of the GLP ones, because I know that's another thing that you're... ⁓ I'm pretty passionate about and an expert on if I can go far.

Jessica Brown: I had a life insurance policy that, and by the way, like being a nutritionist, I felt like I ⁓ of prided myself on eating healthy and doing all the right things. ⁓ it was like, we're kind of at the end of COVID and I had a life insurance policy and my blood work came back for that life insurance policy. And it showed that I was like almost pre-diabetic. And I was like, ⁓ And I went through a huge process. ⁓ And what did I do? I'm gonna restrict. I know exactly what to do. I'm gonna go keto. I'm gonna do intermittent fasting. I'm gonna join the gym. I'm gonna show you, you know, pre-diabetes. And that's sort of like the route that I took. And I realized listening to some other people in the ⁓ that maybe being on a micro dose would actually help with the inflammation. ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: Yep. Yes.

Jessica Brown: that was coming along with being perimenopausal. And so for me, I just took a step back and I looked at all the factors. I'm at the late stages of perimenopause. I met with a cardiologist because I have heart disease that runs in my family. I met with my primary care doctor, you know, and I just started talking about like, what are all the things that I could do? And so for me, microdosing a GLP dramatically helped lower my disease risk, all my inflammatory markers, and it allowed me to have more breathing room without going straight into restriction, into intermittent fasting, counting calories, counting my macros to ⁓ make my body smaller to be more healthy. And me, it allowed the space and the freedom to have more tools in my toolbox, along with going on hormones and, of course, working with my cardiologist. And so for me, it was just a no-brainer ⁓ that transformed how my health.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: presented.

Alexandra Atwell: Interesting. So we all know that they get a bad rap from a lot of people. And some people are like, you know, ⁓ years, everyone's going to have heart disease because they took this just like fen-fen or whatever it was in the 90s that everyone was taking. ⁓ I think there's some misconception that actually these have been around for 20 something years. They're not new. They're just being used differently for the first time. ⁓ Can you speak to the woman out there, the mother out there that's really struggling and thinks she wants to try it but she's not sure? She's got inflammatory problems. Maybe she doesn't need to lose weight, maybe she does. you know, maybe some, I know you're big in science and reading literature and ⁓ maybe some information that you might be able to share to help ease somebody's worries, talk them into it, but ease their worries about it.

Jessica Brown: Well, first is it's important to work with a doctor. And so before I went on my medication, I worked with my GLP-1 provider who gave me the prescription. But before I started it, I went to both my primary care. More importantly, I went to my cardiologist. And I said, it's just really important for you to know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And do I have your approval? And so don't listen to me. Anybody who's listening, I'm a nutritionist. I don't have the power.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: ⁓ or the licensing to say what you should do. We're not doctors, lean on your team. But what we know from the research that ⁓ can start digging up is that there are multiple studies that are coming out ⁓ are looking at ⁓ how medications work. Yes, they have been around since the early ⁓ 2000s. when I say this, I'm talking about the ones that are

Alexandra Atwell: We're not doctors.

Jessica Brown: FDA approved. So I'm not talking about the red or true tide, although that's coming into FDA approval. I'm talking about Ozempic, Wigovie, and ZetBound. So those things have been shown over and over again to not just work on glucose and insulin and glucagon, they're actually immune modulators. So they work on the cellular immune sites. So we have GLP-1 receptors all over our body, including on our heart tissue, including in our brain, and GLP-1 receptors can bind onto the immune cells in all of those places, and they can modulate inflammation. We know this because NF-kappa-beta is a cytokine. Specifically, we talk about rheumatoid arthritis. NF-kappa-beta is stimulated. have... inflammatory cytokines coursing through our system, and that is what is progressing the disease, keeping it in inflammatory state. And we know that these medications bind to the immune cells they help thwart NF-kappa-beta, along with other cytokines like interleukin-6. And so ⁓ at the beginning stages where I think, ⁓ know, ⁓ evidence is starting to come out ⁓ help us understand these are not just weight, Loss medications are actually immune modulators and autoimmunity is an immune issue, overactive immune issue. And we're going to probably, I think in the next four or five years, start to see these medications with ⁓ evidence, researched studies show at a deeper level ⁓ they can do because what I'm seeing is pretty amazing.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah, you shared a couple of studies on your Instagram page about rheumatoid arthritis that were pretty, you know, ⁓ ⁓ that these are changing the ways of we might be treated eventually some years down the line. My rheumatologist has no interest in talking about it, but I have family member who has another rheumatologist in another part of the state and they're hopeful. ⁓

Jessica Brown: exactly.

Alexandra Atwell: that they will be able to get off of their infusions that they are taking because of them. So I just think it's a group. ⁓ Go

Jessica Brown: Just so everybody feels a better, do post a lot of this on the Loving Diet Instagram page. ⁓ just so everybody knows a little bit behind the curtain, I get messaged ⁓ medical providers who aren't ⁓ to these conversations with their patients and have this is great. Thank you for getting this information out. It's not speaking all doctors. ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: No.

Jessica Brown: And it's important to say these are not FDA approved, but for doctors who are thinking a little bit outside the box. And mostly the doctors who have contacted me have said, I have patients who went on this for weight loss, but my God, did their rheumatoid markers improve. And so they get my blessing. And so that's sort of like how it starts. And so just for people to see, I'm not posting this in a vacuum. I hear from all sides of it. I just don't talk about it publicly.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: nor do I mention any names, but people are starting to make connections and see the benefits.

Alexandra Atwell: It's funny because I did talk to my rheumatologist about it a year ago and she was just like, like nothing. ⁓ then this next time around, she said, well, there are studies that it helps with osteoarthritis. ⁓ now ⁓ things are changing a little bit in but not willing to go so far as to say it's helping. And I don't, I'm not a scientist. I'm not a doctor. I don't understand how these medications work ⁓ any than the, you know, I have a baseline understanding of what They do. But it's interesting that are helping people. ⁓ it's there's so much stigma around it. I don't know why anybody cares what anybody does or takes. they're, you know.

Jessica Brown: Well, side effects are serious and they're real. And so that's really important to just state like right off the bat. ⁓ people do worse on them. ⁓ people have horrible that they encounter. So it's very important to recognize that when we're talking about this, we have to include that in the conversation as well. It just is a personal viewpoint. When I went on them, I went on a very small dose.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Thanks for watching.

Jessica Brown: because I was scared of the side effects just personally, you know? And so feel like ⁓ or starting very small ⁓ a really great way, as long as your doctor works with you and helps you with that. That's a really great way to mitigate side effects. But again, we're talking outside the box. ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's hard because as you know, no doctor like you need to go to your cardiologist with this information. You need to go. The doctors are not all talking to each other. No one like the doctors are not communicating. So you really need to advocate and take your own health into your own hands ⁓ make sure you're running it by all all of the players in the game before your. ⁓ Yeah.

Jessica Brown: And yeah, and doctors are not up on all of this published research because they're so busy. A lot of them just don't have time. So they don't have time to look at the research, analyze it, and figure out how it's going to fit into their professional practice, which is the other thing, messages that I get, which is, wow, thanks for sharing this. I didn't know, you know, so that just part of a personal love that I have, which is I love seeing the emerging research. I love seeing the research that just got published last month.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Brown: And that's the research I'm going to bring to all of the people who follow me on social media. But it doesn't mean that it's gotten to the doctors yet. It doesn't mean that they have the time or the energy to take that information and shift their practice. I think that there are studies that show that the way that most doctors get their published research is through pharmaceutical companies. So, you know.

Alexandra Atwell: I was just gonna say, yeah. So is there a business model already like this? I don't know, but like, do doctors have a consultant that they pay to read these researches and bring them to them so that, like, if they don't have the time, should somebody be doing that?

Jessica Brown: I think that published journal like so JAMA, ⁓ know, or the journal nature, the journal cell, like doctors will get those publications sent to them. And that's probably, you know, if they have time, if they have time, they'll read them and they'll see everything. But that's a really.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. But did they read them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the... the layeredness of your insurance, because I've been through the wringer with insurance over the last 16 years. like, don't get it. My doctor can want me to take it, but the insurance companies, the hard no. So then I have to go to a million different other ridiculous things to try and fail for 10 years before you find something that works for you. And that's not fun. it's destructive to the body to do that too, I think. ⁓ Yeah.

Jessica Brown: Yes. Yeah. And all the things about where we're talking about the side effects, which is, you know, not only are there serious side effects like pancreatitis and gastroparesis, but there's also things that people who are on these medications be very focused on doing, like getting enough protein, lifting weights, making sure you're not losing weight too fast, you know, which can cause hair loss and bone loss and muscle loss. ⁓ so we want to go into these, we want to go in just eyes wide open, you know, and not deny the things that are job if we're on the medication to do.

Alexandra Atwell: So one of the things that I've wondered about with it is, know, ⁓ working lifting heavy weights, ⁓ it's really not ⁓ something that do because, ⁓ I I went for a walk yesterday and today I'm limping because my foot hurts. ⁓ lifting heavy weights, ⁓ my and my hands are so messed up that I can't even pick up a 25, I can't grab it physically. like, ⁓ then like, ⁓ if don't lift the heavy weights and... Is this very detrimental? Should it not be done? So all of these questions, and there's no real experts to talk to about, know, the doctors know this part of it and they recommend you do that, but they're not.

Jessica Brown: Well, I'm assuming your audience might be mostly female. And when we talk about how important it is to lift weights, it's not just in the category of GLPs, it's in the category of aging. And all women who go into menopause are going to experience the risk factors of bone loss going up. And so that's where we have to say, like, Ali, you would want to maybe work with somebody like a trainer.

Alexandra Atwell: I think so, Yes.

Jessica Brown: who has experience with people who have rheumatoid arthritis so that you're able to capture the benefits and still have soreness. And so that would be tailored to you.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. And then that goes back to me being compassionate because my body doesn't respond the way it used to in the gym and I hate it. then I have to be compassionate with myself and it. yeah, so ⁓ it's a cycle, ⁓ but it's good to be aware of. And, you know, we're always trying new things, especially in this community. But I don't know what.

Jessica Brown: Yeah. Yes. And all the things that are limiting us from our viewpoint and us from allowing us to be compassionate and kind to ourself as we're trying to meet our goals is within arm's reach. You I tell everybody, your has formed the beliefs that are dictating how you live your life and why, what you deserve, how you're going to see success. ⁓ the things that you're going to strive for, the kind of parent you're going to be, the kind of friend you're going to be. they're all within arm's length. They're just all right here because they're the ⁓ that we formed after we went through an ⁓ and were trying to make sense of it. And so all of these things with compassion is it's all in it's an inside job. It's an inward journey. is inward skills. ⁓

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah.

Jessica Brown: It has nothing to do with going outside of ourself. And so all these things that we're talking about, how we relate to ourself and our illness, these are all things that I tell everybody. They're right here with you. There's no magic formula. Just write down your story. And when something hard happened to you, what did you decide about yourself? And then, know, it's like the power of forgiveness. We are so able to forgive others for their transgressions, but we are so unable to forgive ourself. for making up beliefs that actually kept us safe and helped us understand a hard thing we went through. And so just taking the first step to sort of practice that really transforms our health, our disease outcomes, how we relate to our health, and all of these things that we're really talking about, ⁓ relationship with food and our body. And so I just have not found anything better. Not anything better because... Compassion is a part of every major religion on the planet. And it's a part of how we stay connected to the people that we love, but most importantly, how we stay connected to ourselves.

Alexandra Atwell: Mm-hmm. Yes, I love that. ⁓ have you ever seen anyone fully heal without the compassion piece? Just as a little. ⁓

Jessica Brown: and it's under talked about. Oh gosh, that's a hard one because I think that people will say, am fully healed and I can prove it because here's how I look on paper. But then when we do a little bit of a deeper look and we start peeling away the layers, we'll find that there maybe are some parts inside of them that are scared or lonely or hurt. So it's, yeah.

Alexandra Atwell: He Yeah, that makes sense. I've stopped focusing on being healed and just feeling good. Like I just need to, know, I don't like to say, I I've said it on here a couple of times, but I have rheumatoid arthritis. It's something I live with. ⁓ Like live with the sun coming up and down every day and I try not to own it. ⁓ And am I going to be fully healed of it? I don't know. I hope so. Maybe I, maybe. But doing this inner work, the deeper part, understanding who I am, that's becoming more apparent every, as I get older and older. a scary journey, but an important one. ⁓

Jessica Brown: It's a good point, because I found that as we age, there's more capacity to do this. because it's hard to have conversation with the parts inside of us that feel like we failed. And that's something that as we have been, just the grit of life is like, ⁓ yeah, OK, I'll start looking at that. ⁓ But you're in your ⁓ 20s, way harder to look at that unless you're with something that's really scary and hard, like a big diagnosis.

Alexandra Atwell: Yeah. Yeah. excellent, Jessica. Thank you so much for being a part of my show. I I could talk to you all day long. This has been excellent. I think there's a lot of good stuff. I highly recommend reading ⁓ Jessica's Beyond the Shot.

Jessica Brown: to get up here.

Alexandra Atwell: I actually audible it because the season of life of which I am in, sitting down and reading is hard for me to do. But listened to it on my walks and stuff and it was excellent. There's a lot of tools in there to help you get through all the compassion piece of this. It is heavily on weight loss, ⁓ but were saying other book, which I haven't read yet, is more about autoimmune. ⁓ That one is The Diet, correct?

Jessica Brown: Yeah, so the living diet might be a place to start. Although I tell everybody, if you read that book, do not follow the diet part because the book was published in 2016. And now we know so much that we know that restriction with autoimmune disease and the kind of diet, which was the autoimmune paleo diet, with low FODMAP is not appropriate for most people. ⁓ so if you read the book, just read the first two thirds of the book, not the dietary piece. but it will get everybody into the groove of compassion. And then the second book, the Shot, also, it is geared towards how we see our body, how we see our inner eater, ⁓ it is a step further for re-parenting and self-compassion blended

Alexandra Atwell: Mm-hmm. Yes, the reparenting piece. But there's a lot of tools and steps in which to help you along the journey of it. And I thought it would, and I could relate a lot of it to autoimmune too. I put, I tried to put both lens on when I was reading it or listening to it. So, and you can follow, it's on Spotify. Yes. can follow Jessica along on her Instagram page, the loving diet ⁓ the loving diet. Is that what it is? Yes. ⁓

Jessica Brown: Yeah, every chapter. Yeah. and it's on Spotify as well. My loving diets, the TikTok, YouTube and Instagram and my website is The Loving Diet.

Alexandra Atwell: She's got some really good studies that she shares for a lot of different autoimmune diseases. That's how I found you. I love, I'm one to read a medical journal or a study. ⁓ It's a thick for me. ⁓ So love how you present it quick and easy to understand. it's definitely bringing some hope and shedding light on different areas. So thank you for everything you've done and thank you for your time here. I appreciate it. ⁓ thank you. I appreciate that.

Jessica Brown: Thank you for the work you're doing.